Home > Coffee blogs > wakeknot's blog > price is not the always p ...

price is not the always proportional to taste in the espresso world

 
 
 
 
  • Posted by Wakeknot
  • Fri, 01/06/2012 - 15:47

After blogging about my espresso off of my new Elektra Karrde asked the excellent question about if there are not diminishing returns in espresso machines in terms of price and I replied that yes I thought there were and that to me the place that price kicks in is around $1500 or $1000 if you are lucky enough to get a bargain.  In fact what I had in mind was the price of  a “prosumer” heat exchanger machine, which is when I think you have gotten into truly high end machines – ie your espresso machines are in a class that if they were a car or a watch, or nearly any other expensive good, I would never in my life own them (perhaps you have made it to a BMW or an Acura…).

Then with this fresh in my mind I went to pull a shot of Counter Culture Afficianado on my La Pavoni lever, which is certainly not in that price class.

I was floored.  It was so good.  I remembered why it was always one of my favorite blends.  The truth is that it is a blend that is better on my lever than on any other machines I have owned.  I do not claim to know why, I just know that I cannot wait to pull another shot of it on the Pavoni.

I better amend my previous answer then.  In general I find that the average good coffee is better on a $1500 machine than one that is less than half that price, but prices cannot be used to predict taste.  Sometimes a much cheaper, but still good machine can win.

The price difference does tend to have an impact in the cup – a $1500 machine tend to pull better shots and tends to have more repeatable shots than a $500-$700 machine, but as is often the case in life there are no universals – it depends on the coffee, the barista, the grinder, and your personal taste.

Equally importantly the point is that if you have not tried a super expensive machine or grinder, but have used good equipment you should know that the coffee will not be unlike anything you have ever tasted before and so much better, perhaps it will often be better and be worth the added cost, and the average shot should be better, but it should not be unrivaled by the best shots off of a midpriced machine and grinder. (I think with sufficiently bad equipment it is impossible to make great equipment, but that bar is lower than a La Pavoni paired with a Vario.)

PRODUCTS YOU WILL LOVE!

REVIEWS & COMMENTS

  • @NATHAN CCC

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:48

    thanks for posting, but I am sorry to hear that Aficionado is going away. It has always been one of my very favorite blends! Lucky thing Rustico is way up there for me, too.

  • @TZAHI FRIDMAN

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:45

    that is a good point that as you go up in price producing many shots in a row gets much easier and that is especially true as you say if you want to create lots of milk drinks.

  • @HOONCHUL

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:43

    that is the ironic thing, the more expensive machine the more forgiving it is of your variables. this is especially true of grinders, a Super Jolly is far more forgiving than a Mini, for example.

  • @SAMUELLAW178

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:42

    that is true, but it may even kick in lower than that. I think some of the 1k-1.5k HX machines are probably not too far off from the 2k ones (but missing rotary pumps, slight fit and finish, weight,...)

  • @ERICBNC

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:40

    you are right, and though I have not used one I am guessing that you are well up towards the pointy end of the espresso machine spectrum with the Silvano - from here on out it is only minor improvements.

  • @GMANJENKS.

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:39

    you and SonTon are certainly right. The barista makes a huge difference, perhaps the biggest difference of all factors.

  • @SONTON

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:38

    that is very true. If you take someone who hasn't studied the craft of espresso (ie just pulls shots and does not truly study it) they stand no chance of pulling a shot on a GS/3 that is as good as someone who has paid attention can pull on a Pavoni.

  • @YEAHYEAH

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:36

    that is the problem in life, huh? We may know when to stop and yet it is hard to do it. I hope I am done upgrading espresso machines and it is hard to imagine I am not, but I think I said that last time, too.

  • @INTREPID

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:35

    I think that is pretty much spot on. At some point it also becomes about things like quiet pumps, style, etc that aren't even reflected in taste.

  • @KARRDE

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:33

    it is a lot to spend on coffee, but Roaste can help with that - you have to love ebeans!

  • @JBVIAU

    Wakeknot | Sat, 01/14/2012 - 21:32

    I think the key is to minimize the upgrade cycles! On the other hand if you shop slowly you can often upgrade at little to no cost between bargains on used stuff and deals on Raoste, etc I have much nicer equipment than I started with, but it hasn't cost me much more than what I originally put in.

  • EXPENSIVE MACHINES

    Tzahi Fridman | Wed, 01/11/2012 - 05:48

    As far as I see it, the one-shot test can succeed in most machines of $400 & up, considering a good fresh coffee, exact grind and of course a good barista.
    When using machines at the range of $1000-$1500, considering the same parameters, great shots will be replicated even when pulled one after the other, as they have a much larger boiler, more accurated/sophisticated electronics etc. , and especially if milk frothing is involved as part of the coffee making process.

    12345

  • COUNTER CULTURE COFFEE NOTE REGARDING THIS POST

    Nathan CCC | Wed, 01/11/2012 - 05:29

    Hi, a note from Counter Culture Coffee about Espresso Aficionado,

    Over the past few years, Espresso Aficionado and the certified organic Espresso Rustico have represented the Northern Italian espresso tradition of sweet, complex, and fragrant espresso.

    Recently, their recipes became exactly the same blend of organic coffees, and we think this flavor profile is the best we've achieved yet with either blend. So on January 1, 2012, we retired Espresso Aficionado to increase our focus on making Espresso Rustico and our other espressos extraordinarily delicious.

    http://my.counterculturecoffee.com/coffee/espresso-rustico.html

    Thanks,
    Nathan

    12345

  • WHILE MORE EXPENSIVE DOES

    hoonchul | Sat, 01/07/2012 - 14:53

    While more expensive does help in replicating a good shot, I agree that the biggest variable is you. Having said that I can't wait till I'm able to upgrade to more expensive machine.

    12345

  • TRUE

    samuellaw178 | Sat, 01/07/2012 - 09:22

    A more expensive machine might help better to get consistent results, but you will always hit the law of diminishing returns once you hit more than 2k. Above that, it's probably up to your preference and wealth.

    12345

  • REPEATABILITY

    EricBNC | Sat, 01/07/2012 - 01:58


    Being able to measure parameters and repeat the results is the biggest change I see going from the Gaggia to the Silvano. That is what I think takes a machine to the next level and to allow the Barista to improve shot quality.

    12345

  • SELLING YOURSELF SHORT

    GmanJenks | Fri, 01/06/2012 - 22:03

    I agree with Son Ton, I think the operator has a lot to do with your results. Your Pavoni is something you are intimately familiar with and it's no surprise to me that you were able to produce incredible shots with it.

    12345

  • WHERE IS THE BARISTA?

    Son Ton | Fri, 01/06/2012 - 19:41

    I know you have already mention the role of the barista but perhaps you are understating the barista's importance a little bit. I have seen people make absolutely horrible shots with Marzocco GS3 and while I have made shots that are worthy for the gods with my lowly Pavoni.

    12345

  • AGREED

    yeahyeah | Fri, 01/06/2012 - 18:35

    I'd probably put that point right around $1000-1500 as well. So hopefully I'll be able to stop myself at that point when I get there.

    12345

  • GOOD TAKE ON MORE EXPENSIVE

    intrepid510 | Fri, 01/06/2012 - 17:50

    Good take on more expensive gear, it seems to me that a lot of increase in price is more about being able to make good consistent shots than it is about being able to produce that truely exceptional one.

    12345

  • THANKS FOR THE MORE IN-DEPTH

    Karrde | Fri, 01/06/2012 - 16:24

    Thanks for the more in-depth answer. I'm at a point where I can't really justify dropping a grand on a coffee machine, but I do enjoy the coffee I make now.

    12345

  • SOUNDS GOOD

    jbviau | Fri, 01/06/2012 - 16:07

    I'm happy to report that my returns will not become diminishing until after at least one upgrade cycle. I'm good for, what, a year then? ;)

    12345